Disclaimer: What you're about to read is of a general nature and doesn't take into account your personal financial situation, needs or objectives. We recommend you seek financial advice before making any decisions about your super and consider the relevant UniSuper PDS and TMD.
Leah: Hello and welcome to this special International Women's Day edition of Super Informed Radio, the official UniSuper podcast. My name's Leah and I'm the Head of Marketing here at UniSuper, and today we're celebrating not just International Women's Day, but the incredible women that we have the privilege of working alongside each and every day. This episode you'll be meeting two such women—UniSuper’s Chief Financial Officer Anastasia Crisafi, and Dr Shannon Lloyd, our Head of Capability. We'll catch up with Shannon shortly, but first up, it's Anastasia Crisafi. Anastasia joined UniSuper in 2022, having built her career across a number of key roles in the retirement and superannuation sector. As I mentioned, she's now our Chief Financial Officer and I guess that's a role that might historically be associated with male leadership, so I'm really excited to find out about her career and how she got to where she is today. Let's meet her now. Welcome, Anastasia.
Anastasia: Thank you, Leah.
Leah: Thank you for joining me today. Can you tell me a little bit about how you ended up in not just financial services, but as Chief Financial Officer?
Anastasia: I'll say this isn't where I expected to be. So I specialised in cinema studies and commerce at uni, fell into accounting and then fell into retail and then left there and got a call to come and work for Superpartners, who I had never heard of in my entire life. I went into there and I have been in super for coming up to 15 odd years, so I’ve been doing this and I love it. This is actually my passion. And coming into UniSuper, it was more about my values, which was around working for the member and a purpose. And falling into a CFO role was just an absolute bonus to all of that. When I got the tap on the shoulder to go for this role—which I will be very honest, never thought I would get—but thought I'd try because I thought it was a great experience to go through the process. It was just amazing, an absolute bonus. Everything aligned.
Leah: I really liked the way you said you sort of fell into super, and I think it's fair to say that most people don't choose a job in super. It's something that they fall into, and then it's quite a fascinating sector to be in. One of the things that you said in that little snippet there—it wasn't a role that you would have gone for. Why do you think that is? I've heard the old adage around when women see a role advertised, they feel like they need to satisfy 100% of the criteria, whereas men think around 60%, and they'll put their hands up. Is that what you were thinking?
Anastasia: 100%, yeah. Actually, it was my husband and a friend of mine that told me to snap out of it. They're like, ‘you've got this, you've got so much experience’. For me it was, ‘but I don't have the CFO experience’, albeit I've been kind of doing that role and more because it was global and was a lot more… complex than what I have come into here, I will say. I was looking for a change in flexibility, and when I say that, it was the work/life balance, so it was about getting my life back. Being global, my hours were going till 10pm and on a Saturday as well, because I had to be available for the team. Having the life back of a national Monday to Friday has been just fantastic and being able to concentrate. So, yes Leah, to answer your question, it was 100% that I didn't feel that I had all the skills to do the executive role and I wanted to be 100%, not 80%.
Leah: I think we do that to ourselves all the time. I've been in a similar situation myself, stepping up into a “Head of” role.
Anastasia: But it's always about learning. So every role I go for, I want to make sure that I'm still learning. Otherwise, I will be quite bored to be honest and not challenged. I now understand, having gone through it, that it's OK to go for a role that you're 80% ready for because you still need that 20% to keep you challenged.
Leah: Well said. You talked about flexibility there for a bit. One of the things about UniSuper in particular that you leverage—not just for yourself but for your team—is around flexibility.
Anastasia: For me, my philosophy has always been your family’s first, your work is second. And I believe that in a lot of ways and there's been a lot of things that have happened in my life that has really made me focus on that. For my team, it's about ensuring that we give them enough flexibility to be able to ensure that they do meet their family needs and it's not all about work. And then I often find you actually get the best worker—the one that actually wants to be here and is dedicated. That balance is really important to ensuring we've got that mental stability to be able to do what can be sometimes a pretty hard job.
Leah: That's a that's a great point. I'm big on flexibility and always have been and I think I've worked from home at least one day a week for the last 15 years. Post-COVID, I'm glad it's become much more the norm. But I do encourage my team—I usually come in about 7:00am and I try to leave at about 3:30pm, 4:00pm, that doesn't always work out—but I encourage my team to try and exercise those types of flex as well. OK, you've been here for nearly two years now?
Anastasia: That's right, yep.
Leah: What's your proudest moment?
Anastasia: There's a few, I have to say. One is actually... when I walked in, my team didn't even know each other—they worked very much in silos. Now we're at the point where everybody knows each other, understands what each team does. That's been a lot of work on all our parts. I'm proud of that, I'm proud of where we've got to as a leadership team.
Leah: The cultural stuff is the stuff that takes the longest, but to me, is the most important and I can see that it is to you as well. How do you seek feedback on that from your team and how do lead in your culture?
Anastasia: It's the most important and the hardest. To change culture—to be positive—actually takes time, is what I've found and it's quite difficult. For me, the first thing that I ensure is open-door policy—so just come in and tell me whatever you want, whenever you want. Ping me, I'm available. For me, the important thing is building the camaraderie and the trust.
There are two things I'm trying to create in my environment. One is a safe environment. I never want anyone to feel like they can't tell us anything, and the second thing I'm trying to build in the team is a place where people are actually having fun—actually enjoying coming to work. This is where most of our life is, so let's actually enjoy coming in because if we're not, then I always say to people, ‘then you probably need to look at your choices’.
Leah: I think I laugh more at work than anywhere else! [Laughs]
Anastaisa: Which is always really good, right?
Leah: A little tragic, but true. [Laughs] So, two years in, how do you feel about that step up? Do you feel like you have any imposter syndrome still? It’s something that women talk about a lot.
Anastasia: No—I do sometimes still struggle because I used to always think, ‘what's the difference between a man and a woman? There’s none of this gender divide.’ But you tend to notice it when, sometimes, as a woman, we would say things that people would take as being aggressive, whereas when a man says the same thing, it's not aggressive. I do see that a bit, to be honest, but we're getting better. The one thing that I highly, highly plead to all women is—be there to support. It's really all about promoting and giving good advice.
Leah: Hold each other up.
Anastasia: Hold each other up, because that's the most important thing to actually breaking through.
Leah: That's great advice. I like that a lot. What's the hardest part of your job?
Anastasia: The hardest part of my job is probably people. Which is really interesting, right? Because I'm a leader. But people underestimate how hard it is to manage staff—and it's because you've got such diversity in a lot of different types of people with different types of skills and different types of personalities. It requires a lot of focus and a lot of dedication to do that.
I should say on both sides it's challenging but also very rewarding because when you get there, it's amazing. Part of my job is not just to keep my team, it's actually about making sure that I develop them so they get their next best role. Whether that's at UniSuper or whether that's external, the proudest moment for me is when people step up and I see them do really well, and that's all I strive to do.
Leah: And it's about understanding what motivates people, isn’t it, and giving people feedback. You can't do a “copy/paste” for everyone. You've got to understand what motivates an individual. What's the one thing that you sort of hang your hat on and say, ‘You know, I'm not going to change that. I'm going to continue being that to be authentic to myself’.
Anastasia: It's the one thing that's got me into trouble a few times, but I can't change it, and that's speaking my opinion. If I don't believe in something, I will let you know. Now, that doesn't mean I won't support the end decision, but I won't stop letting people know my thoughts because to me that's important feedback, and it's part of my values.
Leah: OK. There's lots of things in in corporate life and decisions and signposts that we have along the way. What's the advice that you wish you'd been given earlier on or had realised yourself that you needed to do?
Anastasia: One is ‘believe in yourself’, believe in what you can do. And that 80%, 100%—I think that's important to understand that you don't need to be 100%, you always need that little bit to keep upskilling yourself. So that would have been good to have known earlier. In saying that, I was very lucky because I had a lot of managers who just obviously were very good and kind to me and just kept pushing me through the ranks.
Leah: Do you think you were lucky? I don't I don't agree with that.
Anastasia: I don't know. I call it ‘lucky’ because that's my personality, but you're probably right. Some of that is probably very much the capability that was coming through. I've always spoken my mind and I know at times I've actually been told that was a good thing because you actually were showing us that you understood what you were doing and challenging and not just accepting. That's the best advice I've probably got along the way in my career.
Leah: Alright. Any regrets?
Anastasia: Oh look, lots of regrets—you regret along the way don’t you?
Leah: Just today or? [laughs]
Anastasia: Lots of regrets! In someone who does voice their opinion, the regrets will be at times that it’s been said the wrong way and therefore has been taken the wrong way. It's not the intent that I had intended to say, but the learnings along the way have been 'think before you talk’, right? So that's the biggest thing. Listen and then talk. And it's true, you need to stop and listen to then make an informed opinion that doesn't that doesn't actually put anyone offside.
Leah: Yeah, I remember a colleague saying to me once, 'listen to learn, don't listen to respond’. And it sticks with me, and I know it's something I still need to keep doing, but it's such good advice.
Anastasia: It’s great advice, I love that.
Leah: Excellent. Alright, what's your plan for retirement? It's the game we play here.
Anastasia: [Laughs] For me, it's retiring and taking a whole step back. So, not five days anymore. How can I still do what I'm doing, which I do love, but in a way that isn't so time consuming. Not to stop, but to do things that are somewhat easier and more fitting into the lifestyle that I'm looking for, which is spending more time with my family and spending more time on me.
Leah: Yeah, that's a good topic, spending time on yourself, that's one of my things I'm looking forward to doing this year. I always joke to the team about, I can't wait to be a cantankerous old sea witch when I retire and have a nice little shack on the beach and people wonder whether I'm still alive and whether I'm still married or what's happening. I just wanted to talk to you—DEI, which is diversity equity and inclusion, how do you feel like that supports what we're trying to do at UniSuper, which is to provide greater retirement outcomes?
Anastasia: If we're trying to create the best retirement outcome for our members, not every member's the same.
Leah: Absolutely.
Anastasia: The importance of diversity can't be underestimated, I'll be very honest. I never want people to feel isolated because you get such amazing ideas and experiences from all different types of people that come through our door. And I have to say, on a recent hire that we had, this person actually said to me the thing that actually made him come to UniSuper was our diversity and inclusion policy.
Leah: Excellent.
Anastasia: Which was brilliant, which was just amazing.
Leah: Are there any final thoughts you'd like to share with us today?
Anastasia: I guess for anybody out there, just believe in yourself. I think if I can give one piece of advice, never underestimate how good you are.
Leah: That’s right, back yourself. I love that. Thank you very much for joining me today.
Anastasia: Thank you very much for having me.
Leah: OK, it's my absolute pleasure to introduce you now to UniSuper Head of Capability, Dr Shannon Lloyd. Shannon is passionate about helping leaders reach their full potential, and in her role as Head of Capability, she does exactly that—facilitating the professional development and growth of our people. So, who better qualified to speak about great futures made here at UniSuper then? Welcome, Dr Shannon Lloyd to the podcast today. Can you unpack that for me?
Shannon: I've done a PhD, and I did it in looking at cultural diversity in the workplace. It was a real passion of mine from a young age, really, so when I went through uni, I had the opportunity to get a scholarship to do my PhD and I pursued that. And that's the story.
Leah: Well, it's a perfect PhD to have for your job at UniSuper, which is Head of Capability. What does that entail?
Shannon: In my role, there are three key things that we do. I manage the teams that support our employee development, our leadership development and our change management at UniSuper.
Leah: It's a pretty cool job. And how long have you been at UniSuper now?
Shannon: Well, I'm coming up to my nine-year anniversary this year. I started in 2015 and I'm just past five years in my current role.
Leah: Excellent. And you obviously would have experienced a few changes since you've been here, so what's changed in your personal life, your professional life in those nine years? It's a long time.
Shannon: In the time that I've been at UniSuper, I've had a family, I've changed roles, I've moved into a senior leadership position here as well. It's been a massive nine years for me both personally and professionally.
Leah: That’s a lot to juggle personally and professionally in distinction of each other, let alone together. How have you used flexibility in order to achieve that balance? Assuming you've got balance! [Laughs]
Shannon: Absolutely, look, you know, sometimes we get it right, sometimes we don't. When I first came back to work after parental leave with my first child, I flexed my hours. So, I went down to part time and did four days a week. I used flex in terms of working from home or working from the office, and that again has played out for me hugely this year, having my son just started school.
Leah: I think that's a really good example that you're setting for the rest of your team and the organisation that you can flex in different ways and that you can step into the senior leadership roles and still do these things. I'm a big fan and joke about being the poster child for flexibility, working part time, full time, job sharing all sorts of different things. I think it's really important that we set the example that it can be done.
Shannon: Absolutely, and I've used it heaps in my team as well. I have people who have ‘work from anywhere’ arrangements, so I've got team members based in Tassie and in Brisbane. I've got team members who flex their hours, so starting earlier and leaving earlier.
Leah: Excellent, that's great to hear. Let's talk a bit about what are some of the challenges you face, so you make good use of flexibility—what's been tough?
Shannon: Well, the toughest part for me about my role is, we're a support function. And I know what we do is important, but everyone's got so much going on, and at times I know that people feel like it's an extra and it's not actually part of their job or that it's putting more onto them. So for me, that's the hardest part of the job is when feel like you know you're doing the right thing, but actually people kind of see it as a bit of 'HR making extra work'.
Leah: That's an interesting observation. So, you constantly feel that you're selling the benefits of what you do?
Shannon: Yeah, at times it absolutely feels like that and it can be challenging.
Leah: OK. What are you most proud of then?
Shannon: At the moment, I'm so proud of my team. I've had my team in place for a couple of years now and I feel like the joke I've been making recently is I've almost made myself redundant because I've built strong leaders who I believe in and they've built really strong team as well. For me, that's one of the things I'm super proud of. Some of the other things that we're able to do as well—we've done things like scholarships for women in leadership, being able to support our women leaders to continue their development and support their career progression. That's something I'm super proud of.
Leah: Yeah, I'm proud of you for doing that too.
Shannon: Thank you!
Leah: OK, let's mix it up a bit. What don't you like about your job?
Shannon: Well, I think the part I don't like is the selling. The selling of the role and trying to convince people that it's important to spend time investing in their development or that the things that the team do are not add-ons. They're actually part of what makes us successful.
Leah: And it's not unique to your role, so I can imagine the additional pressure being a support service. I think it's a part of being any leader that you have to sell the benefits of your team across the organisation and that's quite challenging. You have to sell the benefits of the individuals in your team, and it's not a comfort zone for everyone.
Shannon: Absolutely, definitely not a comfort zone of mine.
Leah: What do you wish you had known before coming to UniSuper?
Shannon: For me, I think it's about actually saying 'what's the worst thing that can happen if you put yourself out there and if you give it a go?' So that's what I wish I had known a lot sooner, but it comes with time and experience.
Leah: Yeah, it's that self-confidence and all those things that women suffer from, possibly more so than men or we're just more aware of it. I don't know. [Laughs]
Shannon: I mean, look, in my role, I get to say that all the time. We run a lot of leadership development programs and forums, and one of my observations has been that frequently our women leaders will come and talk to me or talk to a member of my team about the fact that they've got that self-doubt and they feel that imposter syndrome. When you look at them and what they do, what they deliver, how capable they are, you can see how great they are, but it's frequently something that plays out and that we see.
Leah: Yeah. And I think talking about it, making it—you know, people who are successful still have and feel this sort of feeling, it's not supposed to be ‘syndrome’, it's supposed to be imposter ‘effect’ or something like that I think we’re supposed to say now—I think the more we talk about it, it validates that everyone feels this way and it's actually OK. How long have you been working in, I suppose business, organisations like this?
Shannon: I'd say in corporate world, about 15 years. Before that, I worked in the university sector. While I was doing my PhD, at the time I thought I'd become an academic and I worked as a research assistant and tutor and was heading down that path. I worked out it wasn't the right path for me, so about 15 years in the corporate sector.
Leah: And how do you think that the professional landscape’s changed in that time?
Shannon: The biggest thing for me is the shift towards bringing your whole self to work. So, acknowledging that actually we have lives outside of the jobs that we do and that that impacts who we are and how we present at work as well.
Leah: Yeah, authenticity isn’t it. It's just completely owning who you are and what you bring.
Shannon: Absolutely, but also acknowledging that everyone around you is the same. They have lives outside, they have pressures, challenge celebrations, and it actually impacts who you are day to day.
Leah: Yeah. And by bringing your whole self to work, it really helps your leader to understand what motivates you as well, and then finding the work that aligns with that is really important and gives everyone a whole level of satisfaction I reckon.
Shannon: Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, as a leader, one of the most important things for me is to understand the people in my team, what motivates them, what some of their challenges are, and then work out how I can support them to actually face into those.
Leah: Yeah. You talked earlier about returning from maternity leave and coming into a new role, and that would have been quite daunting. You know, being a parent is quite daunting in itself, and then having a new big job. How did you ask for what you wanted?
Shannon: It was challenging, and I think on reflection, I probably could have been clearer or asked for more. I'm really fortunate—I have a brilliant leader in Julie [Watkins, Chief People Officer], and she's been supportive of me from day one, recognising the journey that I've been on, both as a parent and as a leader. So, we've always been able to have those open and honest conversations. That makes a huge difference to actually being able to bring your whole self to work and manage that balance.
Leah: Excellent. Who are your heroes?
Shannon: I always find this a really challenging question. For me, it’s probably my parents. I feel they've given me every opportunity growing up. So, I'm one four girls, I'm the youngest girl in the family. They have always given us every opportunity and I think one of my fundamental values is around diversity, equity and inclusion, and that comes from my parents. From a very young age, we had people in our house from all over the world all the time. They would always open the door to anybody, and I think that’s for me, just really been part of what forms who I am and my own personal values.
Leah: There's been a lot of movement in the broader CEO world and men taking a bow out when things are getting challenging and they're putting women in to sort of clean up the mess. I hear a lot about the glass cliff. What are your thoughts on the glass cliff?
Shannon: Look, no one gets anything done like a busy mum. [Laughs]
Leah: Yep! [Laughs]
Shannon: Not to say that they're all mums, but ultimately, if it creates an opportunity, that's fantastic. But it's about recognising these people are in these roles because they have the skills, the experience to do it, and longer-term, actually just the equity for people to be able to step into these roles regardless of what's going on in the organisation or externally.
Leah: Yeah. And what drives you as a leader, how do you define your own leadership style?
Shannon: One of the reasons I wanted to step back into a leadership role was because I really love being able to support people, to look at where they want to get to and put in place what I can to support them to get there. So, I would say I very much value supporting development. I come from a place of trust. In my team, unless you prove otherwise, I'm going to trust that you are doing the right thing, that you have the right intention. That's one of the key things for me as a leader—it's really important to do that because when you have that trust there, you create that psychological safety for your teams. You get better outcomes.
Leah: Yeah, and trust leads to empowerment, doesn't it?
Shannon: Absolutely, and people feel more comfortable to call out for you when they've made a mistake or when they can see challenges in the business as well. It's crucial to high performing teams and that's something that I really try and create in my own team.
Leah: Yeah, that's an excellent answer! What's your biggest hope for the future at UniSuper?
Shannon: My biggest hope for the future at UniSuper, we're really focused at the moment on our diversity, equity inclusion strategy with a key focus on gender. I would love to see us continuing to focus on that, to see more women in leadership roles across the whole organisation. We have strong female leaders in the business, but they're in pockets. So, it's about how we can see that across the whole organisation.
Leah: Fantastic. What's your plan for retirement? That's what we’re here for.
Shannon: Travel, travel, travel! I love travelling. I think one of the reasons it took me so long to finish my PhD is because I travelled so much while I was doing it. Exploring the world, seeing different places, meeting different people, experiencing different cultures.
Leah: Do you feel that you're set up for that plan?
Shannon: I hope so! I've been a UniSuper member for over 20 years, so...
Leah: Congratulations! [Laughs]
Shannon: Thank you! [Laughs] So yeah, I think I will be. I feel like I need to see a financial adviser, I've been thinking about that at the moment for my partner and I to see a financial adviser so we can make sure we've got a solid plan in place.
Leah: Is there anything else you would like to add today?
Shannon: I think the key thing for me is 'stop questioning yourself and give it a go’. Make opportunities for yourself.
Leah: That's such excellent advice. People don't want to see you fail.
Shannon: And I think one of the biggest things I've learned over the five years that I've been in this role is it's actually OK to say, 'I don't know how to do that, but I can learn’. Don't be afraid to show that vulnerability or call out where you need help or support. It's actually a sign of strength.
Leah: Thank you so much for joining us today, Shannon, on our International Women's Day podcast. It's been great having a chat with you.
Shannon: Thank you, Leah, for having me.
Leah: Well, that wraps up this special International Women's Day edition of Super Informed Radio. Big thanks to our guests, Anastasia Crisafi and Dr Shannon Lloyd. You know, I think what's really stuck with me, having spoken at length with both Shannon and Anastasia is how important authenticity is—to be yourself and to own it and not apologise for it. And I really enjoyed talking to Anastasia about readiness for the next role and looking at ‘do I satisfy 80% of that criteria and leaving sort of that extra 20% to challenge yourself’ and making sure that you've got room to grow into that new role. And I challenge you, when you're thinking about your next role, to keep that in mind as well. If you enjoyed hearing from Anastasia and Shannon and are interested in the stories of other UniSuper women helping to create great futures, visit unisuper.com.au/women.
We are UniSuper, the place where bright minds and passionate people strive to think great and create a future worth retiring for.
Thank you for listening, we'll see you next time. And until then, look forward, think great, with UniSuper.